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Post by Buffalo Sabres on Jun 2, 2020 11:22:03 GMT -5
Not sure what to title this, but thought ‘modern society’ does justification. I guess we can speak on all events here, but there’s obviously one that has become extremely prevalent. I don’t typically like to engage in these conversations online, but I think we’ve reached a point where it needs to become a main topic of discussion. I was originally wondering Edmonton Oilers’s thoughts on the current situation in America, mainly with the protests, ‘rioting/looting,’ and the political agendas some parties are trying to paint. |
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Post by Edmonton Oilers on Jun 2, 2020 11:30:33 GMT -5
So much to say. Will reply very soon.
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Post by Colorado Avalanche on Jun 2, 2020 11:44:46 GMT -5
This is an issue that should've been solved a long time ago. What's happening now is the result of the voices not being heard for years. Civil war is the only thing left to make a change cause clearly people haven't cared otherwise.
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Post by Toronto Maple Leafs on Jun 2, 2020 11:48:59 GMT -5
This is an issue that should've been solved a long time ago. What's happening now is the result of the voices not being heard for years. Civil war is the only thing left to make a change cause clearly people haven't cared otherwise. There is a lot that can be done before a literal war. Things like additional and appropriate training, education reform, some sort of positive response by the government. Lots and lots of things before people have to resort to killing each other. |
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Post by Colorado Avalanche on Jun 2, 2020 12:19:25 GMT -5
This is an issue that should've been solved a long time ago. What's happening now is the result of the voices not being heard for years. Civil war is the only thing left to make a change cause clearly people haven't cared otherwise. There is a lot that can be done before a literal war. Things like additional and appropriate training, education reform, some sort of positive response by the government. Lots and lots of things before people have to resort to killing each other. I'm saying from the citizen side. They've been begging for those stuff for years and have been unheard. Now it's resulted in violence and they're finally being heard. It's sad and so shitty but the government forced the people to act like this. So many senseless and ruthless deaths like George Floyd's have been ignored for years by the government. People have finally had enough and it's resulting in a civil war. |
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Post by Edmonton Oilers on Jun 2, 2020 22:14:59 GMT -5
I don't even know where to start, really. There is SOOOO SOOO SOOO much going on, and sooo much to unpack.
First, violent protests.
From many accounts, the vast majority of people at these protests are trying to be peaceful, and agitators (police or white people, or others/outsiders are trying to escalate things). Have seen videos of YouTUbers trying to goad people into flipping cars for the sub-views, have seen random people in disguises, break shit, then slink away, and seen lots of black protesters socially or physically deter white protesters from violence or looting. They continually say that it's being blamed on black people, and making things worse for them and the cause.
They are right, but any black violent protesters are not wrong to be THAT pissed off.
The racism in America is so deeply rooted, systemically, that it's not something white people even see, or think about. Sure, we see the violence. That is the tip of the ice berg. We don't see or hear about the boring stuff. The fact that blacks are less likely to get mortgages, fair loans, qualify for business grants, etc. This all leads to a growing economic imbalance that will forever ensure blacks remain at a lower socioeconomic status compared to whites. If you can own a home, and own a business, you have equity. You build that, and have something to pass onto your children. So your line becomes more wealthy, and prosperous. When you deprive people of this, and force them to rent and own nothing their entire lives, they never move up in the world.
This starts a vicious cycle. If blacks cannot afford post-secondary education, they are less employable. Being unemployed increases the odds you will be forced to resort to illegal means of income (people have to eat to live). This leads to an increase in black crime, which creates a disproportional number of black criminals, which leads to police profiling, which leads to a police distrust of black people in general. THIS, will then lead to aggressive policing, which means blacks will have no reason to trust the entire police force. Fear and anger on both sides.
Now this leads into a big thing. I saw this on a documentary and it kinda shattered my innocent little white mind. What do we (as white people) do when we feel threatened, or in danger? If someone breaks into our own, for example? We call the police. But for a large number of black people, that's not better. The police show up and arrest YOU, or destroy your house looking for evidence of something, or whatever. So now you have a terrifying situation where black people are living in a world without a safety net. You live in this world, your best bet is, what, own a gun? Not so easy for a black person, especially one who has a criminal record because of the above-listed reasons. So more law-breaking. Not to mention, if you are black and have a phone you are very likely to be shot by police, let alone an actual gun. So when it comes to social safety, you are in a lose-lose situation.
This is why people get violent. This is what brings about the revolt. If society is not fulfilling its part of the bargain, by providing you with peace and justice, why should you fulfill your end of the bargain by behaving "civilly" for a system that overtly destroys you and your people?
If someone kiis killing your children, do you walk away? Or do you get fucking pissed off and fight back? You are being murdered anyway, so why not take some of the bad guys with you?
Protests in general
Blacks have been told time and time again the way they are protesting is not right. Kaepernick. The Olympic Black Panther salute. Martin Luther King Jr was considered a terrorist by J. Edgar Hoover. White people (the system, not individuals), have told black people anything they do against the norm is bad. But that's what all fucking protest is. It's a rebellion against the norm because the norm is broken. Not to mention, it's fucking America. Who are white AMERICANS to tell people riots, and violent uprisings are bad. The country was founded on it. The Boston Tea Party is one of the most celebrated acts of rioting and social resistance in American history. But when blacks do it, they are told "this isn't right!"
Voting
The solution is systemic, and therefore, to change the system, you must vote. But as anyone following the last 8-15 years of American politics knows, the system is severely broken. Gerrymandering has become insane. Republican gerrymandering has ensured that poor black communities have had their votes marginalized and the value and impact of those votes minimized for years. Check out some of district line maps, and you can't argue it's happening, and it's calculated.
Not to mention, voting stations are disproportionally closed, moved, or under-staffed in black neighbourhoods and areas. They are becoming increasingly more difficult to access, making it harder and harder for black people to vote, and bring about change by civil means.
Further, since elections don't bring about national holidays, a lot of people have to try to leave work to vote. This is increasingly difficult for poorer people, who have less flexible work hours. And (surprise) statistically, black people (because of reasons mentioned above) are more likely to fall into this poor people bracket.
So we come back to violence. If you can't bring any change through peaceful means, or the "right way", even if you try, what the fuck else is there? Literally civil war. That's it.
I don't think there will be a civil war. I think there will be major violent unrest if Trump wins another term. Currently, his initiative to abolish mail-in voting has sewn the seeds for all kinds of problems - either many people who want to vote but don't want to risk Covid will not vote, or he will lose, blame the illegitimacy of mail-in voting, and get his base riled up and violence will ensue.
White Privilege
This is a very real thing, and we don't see it, and we don't recognize it. One person commented that it's so prevalent in our society that it's like oxygen. When we are born, we breathe it in, and think nothing of it. So many white people are not the kind of racist that hates black people, but they are an ignorant kind of racist. The kind of people that say "All lives matter", because they cannot fathom people living a life where the default "All" does not include them. "Black Lives Matter" is an attempt to be included in the "All". When you say "all lives matter", you are pronouncing your ignorance to the reality that not all lives are treated like they do. That is what black lives matter is - A call to be included. To be considered a life, and to be considered as someone who matters. They are saying, screaming, INCLUDE US. If you pretend we, as a society, are already doing that, you are part of the problem, and should educate yourself some more. It's not even close.
White privilege is the things we know, like we don't get pulled over as much as blacks, we don't have our vehicles searched or stopped as much as blacks, etc. If you don't know this, you should. It's statistically proven. But it extends to things I mentioned above - like the assumption of protection afforded us by simply calling 911. That is not a comfort many black families experience. It's a gamble. Maybe they will help you. Maybe they will shoot your wife while she sleeps in her bed because they think you are a known drug dealer. Again, not a thought that crosses most white minds.
Our superheroes are white. Our good guys are all white. This is the social indoctrination we have grown up with. Superman. Batman. Spiderman. He-Man. Whatever. All of it. It hasn't been until recently that little black boys who wanted a superhero toy that looked like them had any real options. That's insane.
Canada
Need to add, in Canada, we feel different, special, or isolated from American racism. We are not. A couple days after the 9-11 attacks, my Indian friend (born in India, not Indigenous) was spat on in his school hall ways. The nicest, most passive fellow you would ever meet. Literally spat on. It devastated him.
Our Native community here experiences a plight just as bad, if not worse, than the American blacks. We ignore that. We have some Native stuff crammed into our history classes in a feeble attempt to show we care, but it doesn't matter if it's forced down our throats without meaningful peasant-day context. The socio-economic problems facing blacks are just as present for Natives here in Canada. Systemic barriers lead to undereducation, which leans to Poverty leads to alcoholism leads to unemployment leads to poverty, etc. We're broken.
Change
Change is complicated. This whole race problem is so deeply rooted, it cannot be undone in a generation, and probably not for 2 or 3 generations. It must start with education, and, quite simply, listening. Instead of white people getting their backs up when they are told about systemic or overt racism, they need to listen. I have too often heard people, especially of my parents generation, saying the whole, "I'm not prejudiced, I have black friends and I don't dislike black people". That's not it. You are not listening. You are not understanding. We have to actually listen to the problems, and work with minorities to solve these deep social problems. We have to vote for progressive candidates that will work towards this change. But we have to first accept that we, as white people, know nothing. Start with that, and listen to help fill that void.
When we understand the problems, we must speak out when we encounter racism. Overt is easy. Someone calls someone a racial slur, its socially acceptable to call them out on it. But it also includes talking about why black people might be engaged in violent protest. Why unemployment and crime rates are so disproportionately high in black communities. There is no genetic pre-disposition associated to crime or poverty associated with race. So it's socially-constructed. It comes from something we are doing or creating. And that must change. It is far easier to help people when you understand their situation is not their fault. They are not criminals by default. They are not lazy. They are struggling with more obstacles than most of us white folk will ever understand.
We stop ourselves (and those around us) from shit like "Blue lives matter" and "All lives matter", because they obfuscate the point. We educate those people on where they are missing the point. Again, education. By whites, to whites.
A white person protesting this week was shot in the eye with a tear gas can. He lost his eye. His response was, "...but for now all that happened is I did end up losing my eye. This pales in comparison to the hardships african americans have endured for decades".
RE: Canadian Natives. Our education system needs an overhaul here as well. As a child, I had a Native friend who got to leave class twice a week for Native Studies. I wanted to go and make dream catchers and learn Ojibwemowin. I was told I was not a status Native, so I could not. nearly 30 years later, my daughter found herself in the same boat (without even knowing my story) and was still told the same thing. No status native, no Native studies. To learn about a culture is to respect it. Allowing eager young white children to learn respectfully about Native culture from Native people increases respect and understanding, and the rest will follow.
Lastly, keep listening. Follow advocates and BLM leaders and communities on social media. Watch programs about actual Black history. Not just the "MLK was a good guy" stuff, but the grit. Learn about reformation and the second wave of slavery that followed the Civil War. Learn about Shirley Chisholm, actually learn about the Black Panthers(and how they pretty much invented breakfast programs for poor black children, despite being vilified by the media as some terrorist organization). Continue to be open and receptive to the voices of the oppressed, even if every fibre of your being tells you to say, "But...but...but...". Your "buts" don't matter, if you really want to be part of the solution and see change. It's not easy.
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Post by Buffalo Sabres on Jun 3, 2020 9:44:09 GMT -5
Justin touched on the majority of points going on in my mind. The only thing I want to touch on is the 'black crime rate.' First of all, let's touch on the inceration levels of countries. out of 100k citizens, Japan jails 48 citizens, Netherlands 69, Norway 73, Greece 89, Spain 133, Canada 114, Australia 160, England 146. Obviously all are different, likely due to certain variables. US is 655 per 100k. over 4 times more than the next HIGHEST country (in terms of Western worlds). US is clearly jailing more people than other countries.
So now let's look at the makeup of these crimes. According to a Time report in 2016, 25% of incerations were non-violent crimes (and 39% total could be released today, the other 14% makeup inmates that they argue 'did their time').
Now taking in that Blacks take up 40% of the prison population, while only 13% of the population.
Plus, while only holding 9% of inmates in America, private prisons are prominent. And those who invest are very likely to sneak a few dollars to their favourite politician. It just seems like a clear system where rich White men profit off arresting poor blacks for petty shit like weed (while white kids get to do coke and molly every weekend during uni). Plus we can get into the systematic oppression that limits opportunity for them, thus leading to some to illegal opportunities to strive financially.
There's more we can go into with other races, especially the Natives in Canada (like get them some fucking drinking water already), but atm, I think we should focus on the injustices for Blacks in America.
It's pretty ignorant to believe that a country, whose foundation is based on the backs of blacks (among others now (thanks for the oil middle east!)), doesn't have racists roots.
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Post by Edmonton Oilers on Jun 3, 2020 10:06:11 GMT -5
Justin touched on the majority of points going on in my mind. The only thing I want to touch on is the 'black crime rate.' First of all, let's touch on the inceration levels of countries. out of 100k citizens, Japan jails 48 citizens, Netherlands 69, Norway 73, Greece 89, Spain 133, Canada 114, Australia 160, England 146. Obviously all are different, likely due to certain variables. US is 655 per 100k. over 4 times more than the next HIGHEST country (in terms of Western worlds). US is clearly jailing more people than other countries. So now let's look at the makeup of these crimes. According to a Time report in 2016, 25% of incerations were non-violent crimes (and 39% total could be released today, the other 14% makeup inmates that they argue 'did their time'). Now taking in that Blacks take up 40% of the prison population, while only 13% of the population. Plus, while only holding 9% of inmates in America, private prisons are prominent. And those who invest are very likely to sneak a few dollars to their favourite politician. It just seems like a clear system where rich White men profit off arresting poor blacks for petty shit like weed (while white kids get to do coke and molly every weekend during uni). Plus we can get into the systematic oppression that limits opportunity for them, thus leading to some to illegal opportunities to strive financially. There's more we can go into with other races, especially the Natives in Canada (like get them some fucking drinking water already), but atm, I think we should focus on the injustices for Blacks in America. It's pretty ignorant to believe that a country, whose foundation is based on the backs of blacks (among others now (thanks for the oil middle east!)), doesn't have racists roots. Yes to all of this. Also, more systemic racism for you. For years in the US, and until 2010, the sentence for possession of crack (a poor black person drug) averages out to be 100 times longer than the sentencing for powder cocaine (which is more of a rich white person drug). THEY ARE THE SAME DAMNED DRUG! |
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Post by Buffalo Sabres on Jun 3, 2020 10:44:58 GMT -5
I saw a bit on that act, but I didn’t read it. That’s def the best example of systematic racism you could find imo
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Post by XX - Former Canadiens - XX on Jun 3, 2020 16:10:43 GMT -5
What do you guys think about what Drew Brees said today?
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Post by Detroit Red Wings on Jun 3, 2020 17:15:38 GMT -5
What do you guys think about what Drew Brees said today? Idiotic and very time insensitive. Just another example that people don't get why others were kneeling in the first place. |
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Post by XX - Former Canadiens - XX on Jun 3, 2020 17:19:00 GMT -5
What do you guys think about what Drew Brees said today? Idiotic and very time insensitive. Just another example that people don't get why others were kneeling in the first place. Out of curiosity did you know a few years ago about him kneeling and his comments about it? (He didn’t kneel during the anthem just before it) |
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Post by Colorado Avalanche on Jun 3, 2020 17:30:40 GMT -5
Idiotic and very time insensitive. Just another example that people don't get why others were kneeling in the first place. Out of curiosity did you know a few years ago about him kneeling and his comments about it? (He didn’t kneel during the anthem just before it) Kaepernick? It was all over Twitter. Hypocritical that teams didn't back him up then but will support the cause now. |
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Post by XX - Former Canadiens - XX on Jun 3, 2020 17:44:04 GMT -5
Out of curiosity did you know a few years ago about him kneeling and his comments about it? (He didn’t kneel during the anthem just before it) Kaepernick? It was all over Twitter. Hypocritical that teams didn't back him up then but will support the cause now. No not Kaep Drew Brees. But ya Kaep was one of my favourite qbs back then when he was beating the Seahawks. Used to love telling all my Seafraud friends Kaep was better than Wilson even one of my best friends got yelled at by his wife for taking him in our nfl pool lol (this was before the kneeling stuff) But I think what Kaepernick did wrong was wearing that Fidel Castro shirt after the first time he protested at his press conference. I know what he was trying to do is make the world realize what’s going on but that made a lot of people think he’s a hypocrite |
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Post by Toronto Maple Leafs on Jun 3, 2020 18:16:23 GMT -5
Just poking my head in to tell you all that I appreciate every single one of you, and am proud to be part of a community that can discuss this without any malice. Carry on fine gentlemen.
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